My main professional experience is in Ukrainian law. But it’s easy to compare with the Russian Federation Family Code, with their common Soviet basics, built over the Russian Empire’s civil-law system, and modified towards contemporary European standards.
So, here’s a brief to help you estimate general conditions of a marriage with a FSU woman under the law of her country.
Wandering note: Foreign nationals are subject to same legal treatment as local citizens. (Certain restrictions exist, in favor of the latter.)
This post focuses on the material side of relations. Joining it with a survey on personal rights & obligations would be too merciless of me to someone seeking Political Refuge from Women’s Rights. )
- Joint ownership
“What is whose property in Russian and Ukrainian marriages” would make a full-weight post or two. But the general rule in both countries is:
- anything acquired or improved in value within the marriage time (except personal items but not professional ware) is, by default, subject to a special regime of “joint property” which, roughly speaking, regards both spouses as one entity. It doesn’t matter who received the title to a house, car, in whose name the bank account is open. It doesn’t matter if someone didn’t work because of studies, housekeeping, maternity, illness, attending to a child or other relative, such other significant circumstance.
Spouses have equal rights to use and dispose of belongings in their joint property (by default, too, unless they’ve made special arrangements for a different order). As long as they are married, transactions made by one spouse are presumed to be approved by the other (still, the latter may refute the ungiven assent to a big deal, – for this reason, important deeds require written and sometimes notarized consent). If the benefits acquired are used in the interests of the family, responsibilities fall on both spouses and on their joint assets as well.
All belongings of the spouses are presumed to be “joint property“, unless proven to be some kind of “separate property”.
“Separate property”, owned independently but responsibly in regard of children’s interests, consists of premarital assets, heritage, gifts, and whatever has emerged out of “separate property”.
By the Ukrainian law, it also includes personal awards, compensations, paychecks (conditionally) and personal luxury items. The Russian law lists all incomes of spouses, during their marriage, as joint property.
But let me not dwell on exceptions under law as well as under nuptial contracts and other agreements. What info would remain for me to earn a living? ;)
Shares in joint-property assets remain undefined till a co-owner wants to dispose of his / her share (here the regime of “shared property” is going to switch on, which still imposes certain priorities for spouses and children), or to make a division, of any or all of the stuff. Division can be made without association with divorce, particularly to the demand of a spouse’s creditor.
Surprise 1: The regime of joint property, over assets already acquired, may survive divorce, till divided.
Surprise 2: In many cases courts decide to divide the mass of joint-property assets unequally. Not too pleasant, even if it is a punishment for having been a punishment to one’s family.
Surprise 3: Ex-spouses may retain the rights to live in the family home or even each other’s home (private or leased), unless they have concluded an agreement that rules otherwise!
- All children are equal
Regardless of the parents’ marital status, every new birth in Ukraine and Russia must be recorded with Mother and Father indicated, even if they are deceased, missing, or unknown (then a fictitious parent’s name is inserted). A couple is by default recognized as parents, if a child is born within the span from the first day of their marriage to the end of 10 months since its termination (or since establishment of the separation mode). Otherwise, the birth record takes the parents an extra paper to fill.
In some cases, a person who is actually a parent or non-parent (contrary to papers), may initiate or stand a court dispute over the child’s descent.
Respectively, all children have rights and responsibilities vis-a-vis their parents, whatever happens between the parents.
Until a child reaches the full age of 18, parents must provide upbringing and maintenance, ensure the child’s health, wellness, development, high school or home education, both by effort and expense. Parents have priority in living with their minor kids, in teaching and protecting them, and are vested with rights and responsibilities of children’s representatives under law.
Children must take care of their parents. Full-aged children must provide maintenance and healthcare for their parents who reached the retirement age or whose work capacity got impaired.
But parents can lose their rights by neglecting or abusing their parental responsibilities, material or personal.
Between parents and children, the regime of separate property is set. Parents are presumed owners by default. Children are owners of whatever is acquired for their personal needs or formalized in their name, and of their own incomes. But a child is always entitled to live in the home(s) of the parents, and to be let use their belongings as needed for the child’s development.
And all assets, accrued due to joint cost or effort of the family, are joint property of all contributors (unless a different agreement between them is concluded).
Many issues related to child maintenance (support), previously associated with the standards of human honor (too high, though, to be deemed standard in the FSU), became enforcible under law. Extra funding for gifted or ailing children, and maintenance prolonged for students till they reach 23, are now a must under the Ukrainian Family Code-2002.
When it comes to the amounts of maintenance (which are to be defined by the parents’ agreement or by the court), – Ukraine has set the subsistence-sufficient bottom limit; Russia retains the income-related percentage tariff applied in the Soviet time, and demands that the children’s needs should be provided for at the highest level up to what they were accustomed to. Widespread methods of concealing incomes so that to reduce alimony have to become useless when the courts judge by the payer’s apparent expenses.
What didn’t change, is the trend of leaving children with the mother, despite the legal equality of genders, particularly reiterated in the articles on parenthood. Whereas Russian courts, among other considerations, are expected to take material standings into account, Ukrainian courts are prescribed not to. Anyway, FSU courts would take measures to “equalize” wealths for the benefit of the custodian and less wealthy party (which is usually the mother).
Justly speaking, only in a handfull of cases out of 4000 divorces, a local father would claim child custody. Don’t hurry blaming “bad dads”. The Russian Culture Male Code of Honor prescribes leaving the home to the Former-Mate-&-Children’s-Mother, paying off the sense of guilt, and starting life anew.
To many men, such “bloodletting” became an impetus for greater success. On the other hand, some… err… organisms – whether a slob or a tycoon – didn’t shun making threats of violence in order to avoid fulfilling support responsibilities.
- Alimony for the partner, too
One spouse, who lacks funds (up to the subsistence level), or work capacity (due to age, physical or mental disability), has the right to maintenance by the other, who has sources to provide it, unless the receiver was misbehaving in family relations, or lost health in connection with committing a crime, or inflicted the state of need by self-detrimental behavior (including substance abuse), or – under Ukrainian law – had consealed his / her bad health condition from the spouse-to-be.
The amount and form of maintenance are determined by mutual agreement, or in court. The court may deny maintenance or restrict its term, if the marriage (or, in a Ukrainian version, actual marriagely living) has lasted for a short term.
This right survives divorce in the following cases: If the receiver became disabled from the date of marriage till a full year since divorce, – or in any time if disability occurred as a result of abuse by the other spouse. If the receiver reached a retirement age in five years after the end of marriage that had lasted no less than 10 years. If the receiver missed an opportunity to study, to work at all or at a better position because of housekeeping, childcare, illness, attending to family members, spouses’ relocation, or other significant circumstance.
Additionally, spouses must share expenses on each other’s healthcare as long as they are married, – the Ukrainian Family Code points out.
The right to maintenance is terminated, if the receiver is remarried or commits a crime against the payer.
Independently required is husband’s support for the wife who’s pregnant or living with their child, regardless of her material and working situation. The ony preclusion is the man’s inability to provide maintenance. This right survives divorce, and lasts till the child reaches the age of 3 (count 6, if the child is mentally or physically challenged; no age limits apply if such disability requires constant attendance), or if the payer’s record of fatherhood is annulled through a due court procedure.
In Ukraine, since 2002, same rights are given to fathers left living with common children (with only exception as for pregnancy). Under Russian law, these rights are limited to the case of fathering a disabled child.
Peace to your home!
Sincerely,
© Comrade Natalia
…and here I insistently ask you to link this page around! ;)
July 4, 2007 at 12:07 am
Thank you for the excellent post!
A few questions…
Girl buys land before cohabitation or marriage. Man builds house on same land after marriage with material wealth gained before cohabitation or marriage. Man is a mysterious foreign national. lol
In the case of leaving a union of cohabitation, what then happens to the house’s ownership and who owns it? A union of 6 months. Another of 2 years.
Same question when the union was registered as official marriage.
Same questions when there is a child or children.
Natalia: How much would such consultation cost in Canada? ;)
I have been told that assets gained during marriage are split 50% after a marriage with no child. With a child 65% with a child or children within Russia.
Natalia: 50% is a default rule, variations are left to the court’s disposition or to the couple’s agreement, with a view to the child(ren)’s living comforts as well as in compensation to the parent that remains, for bearing the harder charge of raising the child, in impaired living situation.
What weight and force do prenuptial agreements have in Russia when the man is a foreign national?
Natalia: Same as if between locals, if the contract is governed by the local law, – except the clauses that don’t fit in the limits on the rights of foreigners (e.g., land title has always been a sensitive matter). Such clauses are null and void without detriment to the rest of the contract.
Can a man reasonably expect to gain shared custody of a child after divorce when the man is a foreign national living in Russia? Man continues to live in Russia.
Natalia: Yes, even if he moves abroad. The parents are expected to reach an agreement on the child’s address and on the order of shared custody. The court and the Custodial & Tutelage Authority shall see to the child’s interests and protect both parents’ rights under law and agreement. The child’s interests are superior, and his / her opinion has to be taken into consideration. Same degree of unanimity and caution are envisaged for upbringing and education, only that they don’t require formal agreement, and the authorities are resorted to as a back-up.
Although parents have equal rights, the international Declaration of Child Rights (20.11.1959) allows parting the child from the mother only in exceptional cases. Thus, what man can reasonably count on, is visiting, holidays together, communicating, taking part in the child’s upbringing… unless the child may naysay. No other person is allowed to make impediments to their reciprocal rights.
But practically, it’s most important to do your best parting with the woman gently, so that not to leave grudges behind. Evidently the mother is going to be recognized a fitter live-together custodian in her own country (especially that the child is the same country’s national), even with all other considerations (such as parental diligence, schedules, and child’s likes) being equal.
Vengeance and manipulation often raise heads when it comes to the minor’s traveling, which requires parents’ bilateral consent to. And this weapon is double-sided. But arbitrary change of a child’s whereabouts is punishable.
Another field requiring balance of powers – the minor’s own material rights and obligations. Parents (married or not) may dispose of the child’s belongings (alimony not included) only by mutual consent, procedure similar to that in the regime of joint property. Plus, the assent of the Custodial & Tutelage Authority is required for notarization of deeds.
On the other hand, custody is not all about rights. The father would still share material liability for the minor’s delicts.
If after a divorce of a couple who create a child together, the woman decides not to marry a new man who lives with her in the former matrimonial home, in order to continue receiving alimony and support payments, is this permissible in the courts?
Natalia: Courts have often ruled that child maintenance is charged till a change in the mother’s family situation (and “family” implies as well “de-facto family” in Ukraine, not in Russia). But there is a different consideration.
Parents bear independent responsibilities for child maintenance, which shall not be confused with husband / wife maintenance of each other. The amount of child support by the father may be reduced on condition that the mother’s new man is providing for the child (judging equitably, the total level of support that the child would keep receiving shall not be decreased by such reduction). But a “new man for the woman” is not certainly tantamount to a “new provider for the child”, – actually, he did not create this child (if he did, then the ex shall get relieved from child maintenance responsibilities).
…In the Ukrainian law, it is directly specified that, even if the new man marries the mother and becomes a stepfather, his responsibility to support the stepchild is subsidiary. For a formal claim to support, a stepchild needs to have no parents, grandparents, major sisters/brothers capable of rendering it; and the stepfather needs to be capable of providing it. And this responsibility is only imperative when the stepfather and stepchild live together.
Is this “good news” if it were you going to marry a woman with children? No, this is one of the cases when the law is a “minimum prothesis of conscience for a case of emergency”, and morals prescribe to become a new better-than father. What can be called “good news” is that the status of stepfather is terminated by divorce with the mother; the court may relieve you from supporting her child even earlier if she misbehaves in marriage; and, – both in Ukraine and Russia, – if you’ve supported a stepchild for over 5 years, you can count on subsidiary support which they can afford in turn.
Can a foreign man give assets/cash for his ex-spouses material value of their matrimonial home if this is his choice without any further claim to it?
Natalia: Co-owners of wealth can decide whether they divide in kind, (re-)distribute assets, substitute them with monetary compensations, or combine these methods. What you need to have, is mutual consent (in a notarized agreement), as well as the State’s recognition that such agreement would cause no detriment to minors. If there are any kids, bargaining out a home for funds or movables would be regarded adversely.
Still, I continue to try to determine what are the advantages of registered marriage and cohabitation respectively, when a foreign man lives in Russia.
On a practical level, I understand the state’s case to make clear that his life and progeny should be his responsibility. And this is obvious.
Natalia: In a nutshell: Marriage is joint property regime for everything earned within its duration, cohabitation is separate property and shared property, – unless contracted otherwise. Child maintenance is due in both cases, spouse maintenance ensues from marriage only. Courts are jammed and corrupt. Lawyers range from lame to almighty.
Yes, the regime of properties (or specific assets within them) can be contractually altered and varied for either status. Although, in life, a Russian couple formalizing contracts without formalizing even their marriage is an exceptional case: these folks hate paperwork. Especially in “non-material” love matters. Especially “obligatiophobic” men. Especially when the status quo is in their favor. Thus, I could imagine some modern Russian woman adopt the idea of “pre-marriage trial-period” cohabitation, with a civil contract guaranteeing her support, as well as part in benefits and decisionmaking, so the man won’t call her a nobody, and if the relationship fails, her better time is not lost in vain. But more typical attitude would be “Are you going to marry me or what are you taking me for?!”
In the West, it used to be given great legal weight if a spouse violated the marriage vows. And this was strongly considered and contested in family courts.
If, for example, the wife is proven to be with another man, does this impact a foreign man’s divorce settlement, including any visitation or custody applications? The husband is assumed to be non-alcoholic, non-violent, and devoted.
In other words, does the violator of the marriage vows then lose some of their rights within divorce?
Natalia: She shall lose wife’s right to personal maintenance. Can also lose rights to some assets, if this outcome has been well-wrought into a prenuptial contract.
But children have not deserved being deprived of support by the good-faith spouse (foreign or not), as well as of parenting by the spouse at fault. In this regard, would the local court brand a mother, who’s been beyond the husband’s bed, too dangerous to be around kids? If we assume she is herself non-alcoholic and non-violent? Only if she fails her parental obligations to children, or demonstrates promiscuity into their eyes so it may damage their feelings, moral development or health. (But promiscuity often goes along with drinking and negligence,.. by both mates.)
A more typical breach of marriage vows takes shape of a consealed affair with one man. He may be dumped (even immediately), gone (quickly or late), or staying after the divorce if he is not scared by implied responsibility. Children are guarded against news on any lover’s existence, whenever he has met the woman – even after divorce. Only if he is determined to take charge of her family, then the children are acquainted with “Uncle Michael, Mom’s Friend” and ushered on tiptoes into a new situation. (If he can not win their love and respect, he usually has to go away.)
Yes, kids can feel the parents’ mutual liaison threatened. But the court would find that fine-astral-damage-to-their-karmas lesser than the crude-reality-of-losing-ties-with-the-mother, “Because Your Mommy Is So Bad”.
What about issues of emotional abuse by the wife? Otherwise known as nagging incessantly. Sometimes this is a conscious plan to induce a no-fault divorce and not lose rights in divorce. And how would such abuse be proved?
Again, in other words, what obligations does a cohabiting girl or wife have to be consistently civil as opposed to consistently uncivil, disrespectful and verbally abusive within a union of cohabitation or of marriage?
And what would be considered excessive, as opposed to “occasional” familial disputes and passionate, albeit occasional normal human imperfect deportment?
Natalia: Though family members are obliged to treat each other with love, care and consideration, in the FSU they have no right to govern personal (non-material) obligations with nuptials. Well, I would still play tricks with conditional terms of contract, but – proof is the core difficulty of anything! ) Especially in such matters that resemble the Sufi dilemma: “One grain is no heap, two grain is no heap. 100 grains are a heap, 99 grains are a heap,.. where does a no-heap end and a heap start?”
Again, thank you for the excellent post regarding this topic and the discussion of the differences between registered and unregistered unions.
P.S.: Are children truly considered lesser beings in today’s Russia when they are born out of wedlock?
Natalia: They still incur some residual condescending and squeamish pity which is hard to eradicate, however educated you are, and which they can imagine behind every glance, even if they’ve faced disdain only once.
P.P.S.: Do women dream of white wedding dresses and marriage because divorce favours Russian women? If not, then why?
Natalia: Because Russian women are raised on fairy tales and rosy stories with plots leading to a festive wedding between the model hero and the model heroine. Traditionally, the finale is: “And they lived long happily ever after, made a wonderful child (or many children), and died on the same day.”
Divorce is an emergency by definition, even if it has become the State of Emergency. A normal Russian woman wants to be protected against a disaster, as well as in case if it occurs.
Thank you too for helping me highlight more important details.
August 10, 2007 at 7:14 am
Wow…
“Natalia: How much would such consultation cost in Canada? ;)”
This depends on the location and the viability or general success of the particular practice. Much is made of “free” initial consultations. However, the actual value of the information is usually of equal value to free.
In dollar terms, as Canadian dollars are nearing par with American, such consultation can cost between 50 and 500$ an hour. The general is 80 to 150. Partner, non-partner and overall success rate of lawyer all rate relevant factors.
The overall fee is generally linked to the client’s net worth. The determining of this figure is the lawyer’s purpose within all free initial consultations. Lawyers are among the finest of fishermen.
And usually the legal proceedings follow to the point of client insolvency at which time the lawyer magically proclaims a need for a suddenly and urgently conciliatory tone and divorce agreement.
A wealthy public figure will generally receive an enormous rate compared to an average wage earner for precisely the same amount of work and expertise.
The practice of law, Western style.
And yes, how excellent to be able to link to this most excellent post.
A real education. And your most sincerely grateful student. How do I possibly thank you? Yes, of course. Honourable mention and ….
If I interpret correctly; then, my claims to property must coincide with prenuptual income and to show this clearly.
The sticky part seems to be the evident conflict between spousal right to matrimonial abode and my ownership of same made possible with before-marriage assets.
This was partly my reason for asking about the buying out of some material input into this home which would be constructed/purchased with all but nominal participation of some minor moveable assets within the home, by the spouse.
There is no challenge with all matrimonial assets and their division. Simply a desire to the adherence of fairness regarding a previous life and its material gains.
Natalia: The main point everyone needs a prenup for, even if it introduces no difference from the default rules of the law, is to relieve yourselves from judicial proving that some asset, which you’ve got during marriage, was derived from premarital assets. You just confirm mutual acknowledgement and consent that certain assets (worth and specifications indicated) remain separate property as premarital or acquired for premarital (funds, property liquidated). Note that, in Russia (unlike Ukraine), incomes from premarital business or securities etc. are reckoned into the family budget, too. This also can be changed by a prenup, same as other issues concerning spousal belongings. Particularly, you’ll need to regulate rights to residence and land contractually.
Whereas the value of a house normally exceeds the costs of its construction (though in the FSU manipulations with both figures can amaze David Copperfield), and the margin by which the value of premarital property increases during marriage is by default subject to joint property regime, whoever did the works, it is reasonable either to postpone marriage till commissioning, or to contract that, either it would be your separate property, or family property (joint or shared) registered in your name, which would remain in your exclusive ownership in case of divorce, – and envisage more or less compensation for the spouse.
As you could guess, free consultations are sketches, not engineering designs.
*
So, material responsibilities are the default and relatively inviolable with regard to a materially capable father.
Now this is a particularly uncomfortable issue in the West. Very often a woman will, with vengeance, seek to materially take from the father to the maximum, while simulaneously denying access to the same.
“But practically, it’s most important to do your best parting with the woman gently, so that not to leave grudges behind… Natalia…
What weight do Russian women give to the preferences of the child? In other words, when the father-to-child relationship is ideal and profoundly loving? I refer to how this may alter her ordinary right under law to limit access to visit, special occasions and so on.
This is sometimes referred to as “the breeder and a wallet syndrome”.
Overall, I sense within both the law and Russian society, the reverence for the child.
Natalia: Perfect father, stubborn mother – this situation is more like exceptional here. I specifically browsed the Runet for articles and forums. A “typical” Russian man’s love for his children is no stronger than his love for their mother; he would show up, if at all, for occasional entertainment and self-assertion, or to claim the descendents’ attendance and maintenance to himself. The mother is bearing all the difficulties, pledging for at least some glimpses of care; or begrudging the father’s rights which turns out the only leverage to make the man remember about his obligations; or concluding that she and her parents would provide the child with more love and peace than such a dabbler. A girl who was aged 11 when her parents divorced, writes: “I have seen everything about their relationship. First I missed my father very much, and we were meeting without impediments. But when I came to realize that he won’t change, and wasn’t truly interested in me, I had no more desire to see him.”
Basically, the law promotes both parents’ broadest involvement, which is specified by the settlement between them, approved by the court (the older the child, the more weight his/her opinion has; sometimes psychology experts are required, though in deficit). The settlement is usually far from strict in terms of scope and schedules of personal interactions (life is busy and hardly predictable). Limits at the time it is concluded, and possible sabotage of performance, may be dictated by the following considerations that interfere with Russian women’s general understanding that “Children Need Both Parents Whatever the Parents’ Own Problems Are – I have no husband, nevertheless may my child have the father“:
- Pain and hatred. A woman wants to hurt back. Or to manage her negative feelings for the man so that they won’t affect her love for the child by him. Or to prevent the child’s upbringing from “wrong” influence. Like, “He’s a treacher, there’s no place for treachery in our lives”. Wise women, however upset, don’t let anyone badmouth the father in front of children, to prevent development of unhealthy relationship models. Unfortunately, there are many mothers and others who can’t help oozing negativism into the kids’ ears.
- A strive to forget the ex, to avoid his impact on her own life that has to be built anew. What would she tell to the little? To spare them from the private adult reasons till they “grow up and understand” how can Dad live not with us but with some Aunt, and why can’t Mom live with Dad anymore, – traditional has been some white lie like “Daddy loves you, but…” (next follow some heroical occupations that keep him far over seas and mountains). Sometimes the wounds may heel, and communication resume – including ex-in-laws.
- Jealousy for the child’s love. She fears that the ex may (wilfully or spontaneously) undermine her image and outweigh authority in the child’s eyes – and it would make the daily upbringing still harder. The visiting status has some tricky advantages. Familiarity breeds contempt, absence makes both hearts grow fonder. Children would cling towards the “outcast” (the father who is leaving) and revenge against the “offender” (the remaining mother). Add the “Sunday papa” phenomenon.
- “Sunday papa” spoiling the child. Here He comes. Fresh on his best behavior. Never tired, never angry, never intruding with discipline like Mom. Never associated with times of illness and money shortage (here a joke by men who value wives below mistresses: “You’ve been there for me in all my bad times… now I know! you bring me bad luck!”). Anxious to repair his guilt or sense of guilt with presents, extras and indulging attitude. Then the kid comes back from holiday into routine, from expensive show-off into modest budget, from icecream to soup…
- Fears that fatherly affection would soon wither away when the man has another family. Typically, the new love and children by her get all the attention (Mrs Next perusing all available measures to assist that), and the “old page” is closed. Imagine how the “ex-kid” is injured!
- Sometimes children feel worse after the visits. Particularly if “other women” join the walk. But here’s another story: “I never objected to their meeting. But several times he failed his promises to come, to go to the circus, etc. The child was waiting, weeping, biting nails all the time, and so on into a neurosis. I decided to put an end to this torture. A year has passed on our own; the kid is happy, and calls my second husband Daddy, although knowing that he’s not same blood.”
It is difficult to prove sabotage taking place, but when it happens, the woman may be called to compensation (not a sack of gold, though), unless it’s proven that communication with the father is harmful for the child’s psyche.
*
Now a real grown up question. I will do my best to put a subtle tone to it…
Woman has child and divorces. She makes a practical claim to the previous material home and its continued use as a home.
Natalia, what if she brings home her future mates and happens to be, err, well, quite vocal about her private time with Mr. Next? Or is she expected to express her intimate needs outside of the previous marriage’s matrimonial home?
In other words, “honey-ex, thanks for taking care of little Lilya, I have to go give my passion a fill.” And ex-hubby is alright with that?
Seems a tad peculiar and complicated to me. Ex-husband and ex-wife each “doing” their Miss and Mr. Next within the same shoebox apartment. How in the world do “vocal” women practice personal fulfillment without inciting rage of either the ex-husband or ex-wife in the case of his new “vocal” next?
Natalia: “This is to your frigidity!” – “This is to your housing achievement!” – In the scenario that you describe, it may well end with another kitchen knife murder of/by any of the participants. Or a 3-4some, as a happy end.
Sorry: talking about the “golden median” (not the “guilded” few!) I’ve been leaving aside the abysses of low life. Open a middlebrow newspaper, and you’ll get an impression that the “Russian standard” is: children axing out their parents (little siblings for tie-in), if the parents haven’t been killed by drinking buddies or have missed putting the heirs off by violence, neglect, or first-day throwaway infanticide. Orgy would be just a school game (a favorite one with many creative variations). And this is not all about homeless and jobless. Vulgarity survives economical gains. By “vulgarity”, I now mean these or other patterns characteristic to villages as well as to urban proletariat (any scale of locality).
Let me now show you a “slice of heaven”. Of course, people would seek solutions to move apart after a breakup. If they still have to share the apartment, – then at least to have sex elsewhere or when no one is home. Hex, it’s incomfortable to know someone is hearing! Especially “little Lilya”.
You know, consciousness in front of children typically sterilizes a Couple into Parents, who shy down their sensual expressions and lack opportunity to be intimate when the kids may inquire what’s happening. (A joke: Mom asks Dad, “Do you want a boy or a girl?” Little Bobby rushes in: “And for me, a saber, a Soviet army cap, and a bicycle!!!)
Housing is indeed the main challenge to human nature here, as Bulgakov said.
*
P.S.: Are children truly considered lesser beings in today’s Russia when they are born out of wedlock?
“Natalia: They still incur some residual condescending and squeamish pity which is hard to eradicate, however educated you are, and which they can imagine behind every glance, even if they’ve faced disdain only once.”
A very potent emotional argument to protect one’s blood from public denunciation. In other words, if your own flesh and blood poppa did not value you enough to, in the most public of ways, announce his proud attachment to you; then, what kind of low life are you?
Natalia: Rather, “what kind of worthless and immoral parents are you by?”
Therefore, in its most basic philosophy, marriage is about children, on many levels, yes?
Natalia: Yes and no. There are many reasons that may lead to marriage. In the long run, same may lead to divorce (and they await a special post). Pregnancy is among them. On the other hand, many people would not equate marriage to children, as they get married foremost to be together, not always being ready to take care of a new life, and willing to have some time for enjoying each other.
“Natalia: Because Russian women are raised on fairy tales and rosy stories … and died on the same day.”
And, and, and… “spouse maintenance ensues from marriage only.”
In other words, give me peace, security and happiness, the world can be such a cruel place for a weak woman such as me. Simultaneously beautifully weak and laudably strong.
On another perspective, it has been explained to me, that marriage provides for men as formally as possible her attachment to him.
On the male plane, [no, not the kind that flies] “She’s MY wife.” What don’t you understand about that before I give you a whole new facial identity?
And which planet did you say you women are from?
Well of course, from this place where issues forth “little slices of heaven”. All things being equal, of course. In the heaven and hell equation.
Sidebar: Recently the Vatican admitted that there is no hell.
Alright, so would you accept that there is a place called “hath no fury”? [i.e. a woman scorned]
Natalia: The scorned woman is that very vessel of demons lol
A Hollywood fantasy movie for men who adore their children or who are pre-disposed to same:
“I AM SAM”, 2001, Sean Penn and Michele Pfeiffer. Dakota Fanning is the little girl actress who is “a little slice of a miracle”. Definitely one of heaven’s diamonds.
Overall, profoundly beautiful.
How’s the summer where you are, Natalia? And how in the world are you, comrade?
Natalia: As usual, thankful for your contribution, and apologetic for my preoccupation with agency startup! )
August 29, 2007 at 4:21 am
Know what I really love about you, Natalia?
I’m not going to tell you!… lol
But, in a related matter, I applaud your laudable sense of social style and etiquette. You actually reply to your visitors when they make comments to you directly, regardless as to how long it may take you to do so.
It is EXTREMELY rude when a blogger, or anyone for that matter, has a habit of ignoring comments made directly to them “when those comments are made without malice”. It shows a pretentious sense of self and a feigned sense of etiquette with regard to all other comments made by the blogger which allude to what they hope might infer knowledge of the finer parts of deportment.
The more I am a witness to Soviet deportment, the more I admire it.
How’s the work on your agency proceeding?
Oh, a legal question…
Can a foreign national register a vehicle purchased by them in their own name, or do they have to register a vehicle purchased by them in either a corporate name or the name of a Russian citizen?
Many thanks and greetings.
August 29, 2007 at 8:06 pm
If you asked about Ukraine, I could even provide a detailed instruction on the procedure of registration. For Russia, I’d only answer “yes he can”, giving you scores for not bothering your Russian lawyer girlfriend. )
Please don’t overcredit me for etiquette! ) As you can see, I would sacrifice courtesy to informational density. Here’s a special page reserved for blogging issues not relevant to specific topics of exploration.
The agency work is in progress. We’ve made a slick 1.0 Web interface for making up personal profiles, integrated with database and picky search engine. I am translating it into Russian, with the psychological input by good Dr.Tamara. When Joseph arrives this autumn, we’ll start traveling all over Ukraine to recruit good women. And he already has some competitors on the male bank of the pool! )
August 30, 2007 at 8:45 am
Interesting. The “yes he can” response. Hmmm.
Thank you.
September 3, 2007 at 1:36 am
I knew it.
September 5, 2007 at 1:27 am
Socon…
But you probably didn’t know that my home renovation was also privately contributed to, and supported by her friend’s apartment sale and interest free loan to her to me.
How’s that for Russian friendship and trust? She put her butt on the line for me. Any idea how long it would take her to repay my loan if I made myself scarce?
More money than a modest new car costs. She likes cars much more than me and thought that I would pick up the hint to buy one for her with the debt owed instead of simply handing her the cash from the sale of my now renovated and much more highly valued home.
Just by the way…
And for some further “I knew it”… please read the following:
http://russianlove.wordpress.com/tag/russian-love/
Oh Yee of so little faith….
And just to be clear… She could already have bought that car for herself with the money which is now in my home and which represents our nest egg of a new life in Russia and enough equity for my new business there. This is over and above the loan referred to above.
And, yes, I carried out the renovations solo and am able to contract the building of a home from scratch. Which is the plan once I launch in Russia. The business that is.
We spoke in detail about all aspects of the significance of increasing the market value of my home.
When I see the many complaints about scammers, I wonder if these men have any idea what it is like for a wee, little Russian girl who was raised in poverty to make a bank transfer of a half million rubles to her foreign man without a paper record contract or lien recorded against the property in question. A lien can make a buyer doubt.
She is a remarkable business consultant and earns in the top 1% of her profession. Possibly why men serious about profit and business prize her council.
Which is why I asked her to be my sole agent and contract negotiator. Not altogether too bad considering how she perceives herself in her truest image… wife and mother.
And if this kind of trust and devotion borne of love is generic from your point of view then I congratulate you for your charmed life. She has already done for me what I myself would quite possibly not have been able to do.
Россия, покажи мне мое счастье. Научи меня моей страсти.
Russia, show me my happiness. Teach me my passion.
When it comes to love and what it is my friends, I tell you, relative to her, I know nothing. I am her grateful student.
Now help yourself to my post link above… if you please.
September 13, 2007 at 10:26 pm
Rexpat,
Lol, has your fiancee yet pointed out your tendency to become overly-defensive? ;)
That was actually a mis-post; my browser has been running amok recently.
Methinks you’ve been spending too much time over at Luke’s.
Take it EASY. ;)
October 14, 2007 at 12:39 am
My new love is recently divorced in Cremia. He shares custody with his ex-wife who was unfaithful of a 3 yr old daughter he loves dearly. He would like to bring his daughter to the USA to live with him and me and my family. What are his prospects of achieving this? As a mother I can’t imagine the ex would be happy to hand over her child so far away that she couldn’t see her.
Natalia: This is indeed a problem. Minors can’t travel, the more so relocate, without written consent of both parents. There are cases, when the missing parent cares more about the new relationship than about the child, where material compensation becomes an overweighing argument. But I can’t guess if her values are that low. Your situation is a subject of difficult and careful negotiation between all adults involved, and depends on many individual factors.
November 30, 2007 at 11:09 am
What is not allowd in prenups? Can you put in them the wife gets nothing if you divorce? I am also unclear about living together without marriage. If she has a child and you dont and seperate (not married) do you still have liability?
Thank you.
November 30, 2007 at 9:36 pm
Art.93 of the Family Code of Ukraine, – governing contracts concluded by would-be spouses (in force since date of marriage) as well as between registered spouses (in force since date of contract):
“3. Nuptial contract can not regulate personal relations between spouses, or between spouses and children.” (Only material issues between spouses, or also in favor of children and other relatives. Indirectly, personal behavior can be influenced by envisaging material consequences for some action or inaction.)
“4. Nuptial contract can not reduce the rights of children under law, nor place one of the spouses into extremely infavorable material standing” (as compared to the law. Certain amounts/assets and shares would be enforced.)
“5. Nuptial contract can’t transfer title to property that requires public registration.” (To transfer such property, a specific contract is concluded and notarized.)
Russian Federation Family Code, Art.42, contains such restrictions on nuptials / prenups: can’t reduce legal capacities of the spouses; can’t govern personal relations; can’t govern rights and obligations towards children (material issues factored out into specific agreements); can’t deprive a disabled spouse in need of maintenance; can’t contain other provisions that place one of the spouses into extremely infavorable material standing, or contradict the basic tenets of family law.
Even if it weren’t for enforcible guarantees, – practically, there is hardly a woman in the FSU who would sign a “get-nothing” contract, unless in a situation that the court would later recognize undermining the validity of contract as concluded “with flaw in volition”.
Non-wed couples, in both jurisdictions, can conclude civil-law contracts in lieu of nuptials. But under the basic principles of Russian or Ukrainian civil law, also applied to family relations, one can not sign an act reducing his/her scope of rights under law (e.g. to waive a right to sue or to receive alimony), and not of course reduce the rights of third parties (children).
***
Russian legislation places no material obligations on step-parents, only on grown-up children towards people who have undertaken custody or material care of them in good faith for 5 years or more, and then became disabled, in need, and lacking able supporters under law.
Art.268 Ukrainian Family Code obliges a step-parent (spouse of the parent) to maintain the stepchild, if the stepchild’s parents / grandparents / major siblings / half-siblings can not, and the step-parent can afford it, – unless the spouses’ joint living was short-term (less than 10 years), or the parent has behaved improperly in spousal relations with the step-parent.
By Art.269, if there was no marriage, a person who has lived with the non-own child as one family incurs a similar obligation (if affordable) only in case this child has no parents, grandparents, major siblings / half-siblings.
The minimum criterion for maintenance responsibility is, thus, living together, the further one is formal marriage.
These obligations turn reciprocal on the grown-up children towards their supporters, similarly to the Russian law.
More information on non-wed cohabitations compared to marriage in this post.
November 30, 2007 at 10:36 pm
[...] In the Russian tradition, a “Real Man” ought to render all his earnings (save for the “sacred” Cacheaway) to the Family Treasury governed by the wife (poor to middle class families of any occupations). And if he was leaving the family, a half-jocular proverb limited his rightful share in property to a toothbrush. [...]
December 1, 2007 at 7:09 am
Wow, that was the fastest and best response I ever got.
December 12, 2007 at 4:11 am
What is the shinny on the new visa requirments for Ukraine if from the US? I know you can stay 90 days visa free. But can you leave the country and return the next day and stay another 90 days? Next year I will retire and want to move to Ukraine to see if I like it. Is there an investor visa like Panama where you get residency if you have so much in the bank in the country or buy real estate? Thanks for any advice.
December 17, 2007 at 12:46 am
Generally, the 90-days term of visa or visa-free stay is given once in a half-year period. When Ukraine is admitted to the WTO, the nationals of WTO countries would receive access for up to 180 days per year.
To prolong the term of stay, a visitor and his receiving party (permanent / temporary resident, or legal entity) should apply to the local authority of internal affairs, no later than 3 days before expiry of initial registration. Also a visitor can apply for prolongation in case and for the time of emergency (disease, vehicle repair, act of God), with documentary evidence of the cause and its estimated duration.
Temporary residence related to employment or studies is granted and prolonged in a specific procedure, for the term of work permit and/or contract, or the course of studies.
Permanent residence is granted:
within quota – to foreign currency investors into business($100,000+ duly registered), or to scientists, artists, skilled workers and experts;
also to immigrant’s minor children or resident’s siblings, grandparents, grandchildren;
beyond quota – to Ukrainian nationals’ spouses (married over 2 years), children and parents;
also to foreign Ukrainians, their accompanying spouses and children, or to people who can claim Ukrainian citizenship by territory of origin.
August 11, 2008 at 7:37 am
My Ukrainian girlfriend G. is the proud mother of a beautiful 3 year old girl. The father of this child is a married man from England. He deceived her about his marital status during courtship and among promises of marriage and lies of happy family future, her daughter was conceived. Even after knowing about his wife and other children, G. has hoped for truthfulness in his ongoing deception, though realizing that this ‘other’ situation he has created with her is not serious and sees the reality that he will never create a family life with her. I have known G. for 6 years and although we did not communicate for some time, and pursued other relations in our lives during that time, we have come together once again, and have the same wishes and dreams about a happy family and successful future together.
Since G. does have a child, with another man, and was never married, we certainly have outside influences that will always be a part of our life. Even though this man has proven to be a liar and a selfish user, I still think it’s important to give him the opportunity to take responsibility for the situation he has create. G. has told me that he has sent small money over the years (maybe a few hundred dollars total since her daughter was born) but that he always finds excuse not to send money even in times when she and her daughter have critical need. He knows about my relationship with G., and uses the threat of withholding promised financial support to manipulate her.
I find it appalling that a man would have such initial deception, but then to be father of a child and ignore his responsibilities, abandoning the lives of a woman he swore to love and a child that he brought into this world regardless if the specific complications.
He has now told her that he will never send money, and she simply doesn’t have the income to sufficiently provide for her child. While doing research for this situation, I have come across your blog, and this thread. Is it possible you can provide some insight to the international technicalities that would be involved in trying to secure a child-support agreement? Probably it will be necessary to have a court-ordered agreement as I anticipate he will do everything possible to avoid his responsibility.
She says that by law that he is nobody for her daughter because they were not married, and she does not want him to have any rights to her daughter anyway. I know that even unmarried, the law will recognize him as a father, regardless of marital status, and even if G. doesn’t want him to have any rights to their daughter, he does have rights… but that also means he has responsibilities, including financial support for a child he brought into this world with her.
A quick second question is that I am an American from California, but I am currently spending most of my time in St Petersburg, Russia creating a new company that will allow me to travel both places frequently. Will she need this English man’s permission to bring her daughter to Russia or is the boundary between Ukraine and Russia different than other foreign countries? I am sure that once we are married, we would still need his permission to bring her daughter with us to California for short periods of time, but does that requirement stop if I adopt her daughter? Will I need his permission to adopt her daughter?
I am only trying to do the right thing. And as a man, I am willing to help her in any way she needs it, but I also think it’s important that her daughter’s father doesn’t completely ignore his responsibilities to her. I can only imagine how her daughter will have self-esteem issues growing up feeling like her father didn’t care at all.
August 13, 2008 at 6:22 pm
Dear Chad,
thank you for a thorough explanation of the situation and for your kind permission to post it for other reader’s education on the topic.
As you announce serious intention to complete this little broken home, I’d dare disadvise wresting a wrong member into it, from both legal and psychological standpoints.
Our Family Code in force states that a child born out of wedlock is registered to a father provided there is his voluntary application or a court decree. Else the “Father” field of the birth certificate contains the mother’s surname and any actual or fictitious male name she chooses to indicate. This prevents the “blank label” on the child, yet without establishing fatherhood, and this is evidently the case with G’s daughter.
Assume we’ve jumped over our heads to get the court decree that ascertains fatherhood, which you need prior to litigating for alimony. (Documented support previously rendered is a weighty evidence. But enforcement… Does G. ever know his legal address, for starters?) This would preclude your adopting the child and, yes, put the child’s whereabouts into dependence on Mr. Evil’s volition.
You’ve expressed concern for the child’s self-esteem above subsistence considerations. Then, good news: I have enough evidence that “issues” may be a non-issue.
Children don’t measure care with cash; in fact, they feel even more hurt if a parent “bails out” of personal connection. Can one be forced to give love and what is such “love” worth?
Having grown in a room with no father’s chair feels different from missing a good Daddy who’s been there for years. Children take their environments for granted, until we start thrusting social stereotypes on them. Often what we may take for an injured spirit is just a reflectory air of one’s preconceived defense against the Joneses’ preconceived pity. By an exaggerated analogy, many people born disabled turn out more strong, generous and lively than their medically healthy neighbors.
Oh, but other kids have dads… Notably not all, – that’s to mitigate the “I’m Unlike” doubts. For the single mother, there are two usual strategies. To invent a heroic legend (in Soviet times, it used to feature an “aviator lost on a polar mission”, a “far-away captain” or such like). Or to explain that it’s not about “you” (the child) as a person but about “him” as a person who’s acted selfishly and irresponsibly. “It’s not your fault, dolly, it’s my mistake with a happy outcome. It’s not us abandoned, it’s him excluded from our life”. So why fret over the attitude of a de-facto stranger such a de-jure father is?
Sure it’s bad to have a negative character in the family epos (especially if he’s referred to as “YOUR Daddy”). But much worse is to have one still in touch, ’cause stories educate – how things should not be, but examples teach – how things can be. Better have a blank background to build on.
And what’s absolutely reintegrating is to have another – positive – male figure in place. A grandfather. A stepfather who truly loves the mother – and the child! The main thing is for the girl to understand that all men are different. With that in mind, certain extra caution and self-reliance, characteristic to broken homes, is a useful heritage in this world.
Wish you best of luck, heart, patience and wisdom in your noble endeavor!
November 5, 2008 at 4:21 pm
Hello Wonderlanderlander.
I just watched a Russian television show, November 5, 2008, where a Swedish man had put his soon-to-be ex-Russian wife in a Swedish jail for, under Swedish law, kidnapping his daughter to her grandmother’s apartment in Russia. They were divorcing and he had wanted that his daughter be more accessible to him, as before their plan to divorce; as they had both lived in Sweden.
What exactly are a foreign man’s rights regarding custody when there is conflict over domicile of the child/children?
What seemed interesting to me is that while the Russian woman sits in a Swedish jail for kidnapping, the child’s Russian grandmother seems to have more rights than the biological father.
Have a good day.
November 6, 2008 at 3:42 pm
Greetings, Rexpat.
I should refrain from speculations on the Swedish Criminal Code. In the translation I found, the constituent elements of crime include the offender’s intent of abuse or ransom, or the victim’s potential endangerment, and yet these strict definitions are mingled with vague “lesser crimes” also punishable with imprisonment.
Art.163 of the RF Family Code specifies that the rights and obligations of parents and children are determined by the law of the state where they have a place of joint residence. (The RF Civil Code, Art.20, accounts residence as “permanent or prevalent” and presumes the residence of minors younger than 14 to be that of their parents.) If there is no such place, effective is the law of the state of the child’s citizenship (legal nationality). A claimant for maintenance or for other parental obligations can demand application of the law of the state of the child’s permanent residence.
The citizenship of a child born from a Russian citizen and from an apatride is Russian. The citizenship of a child born from a Russian and a foreign citizen is determined by the parents’ written agreement. In lack of the latter, the child obtains the citizenship of the Russian Federation, if he/she is born at the RF territory or might otherwise become an apatride. (Art.15 of the Law “On Citizenship of the RF”)
A Russian citizen who lives abroad has a right to be divorced from a spouse of any or no citizenship, who lives abroad, at a court of the Russian Federation (or at a Russian diplomatic mission / consulate if the law of RF allows divorce through a Registry – in cases mentioned in this post). Divorces administered at the RF territory are subject to the Russian law. Divorces administered abroad in compliance with the applicable foreign law are recognized in the RF. (Family Code, Art.160)
The residence of the child of parents in divorce, who have not submitted a written agreement thereupon, or whose agreement infringes on the interests of a child or a spouse, is determined by the court. Both parents’ rights and obligations towards minors (including the domicile issue) are equal and must be exercised in mutual consent, in observance of the child’s interests and with respect to the child’s opinion. (Family Code, Arts.24, 61, 65)
Parents have priority in bringing up their children (Art.63), but grandchildren, grandparents, sisters, brothers “and other relatives” have the right to intercommunicate without impediments, independently of the parents’ divorce or separate dwelling (Arts.55, 67)
A parent living separately from his/her children has rights to communicate with them, to take part in their upbringing and in making decisions on their education, to inquire about their well-being and conduct from educational, medical, social safety and such other institutions. The “remaining” parent must not obstruct the child’s communication with the “visiting” parent, provided it makes no harm to the child’s physical, psychological, moral health and development. (Art. 66) The child’s right to communicate with both parents remains in force if they live in different states. (Art.55)
If a conflict is brought to court, the court can transfer joint living from the non-conforming parent to the diligent “visiting” parent, and impose other civil punishments. In any case, the child’s interests and opinion are to be observed. The court must consider the child’s age, his/her relations with each parent as well as with brothers and sisters, the parents’ personal and moral qualities, work schedules, material and family situations, and other conditions for the child’s upbringing and development. (Arts. 24, 65, 66)
As you could notice, I avoided the term “custody”. In Russian and Ukrainian legalese, “custody” and “guardianship” are applied to minors deprived of parental care (if the parents are dead or their rights are canceled, circumscribed, impeded, compromised…) or to other people of limited legal capability. In such a case, respective rights and responsibilities may be given to a custodian / guardian, who is preferably a member of the recipient’s extended family.
November 7, 2008 at 3:52 pm
Wonderful Wonderlander.
In the West the courts nearly automatically decide “custody” in favour of the mother. Shared becomes more common. In the very egalitarian Sweden, where sociological distinctions betweens the sexes are quite blurred, I saw in the interview the result of this sociological end-game.
In Russia, the moral authority, as well as again legal dynamics, again assumes the mother’s nearly totalitarian claim to childrearing.
Within both cultures, for different reasons is a marked departure from the marriage contract of the earlier part of the 19th century when “breeding” of the man’s/husband’s lineage was the predominating purpose of marriage. He agreed to care for her material and security needs in exchange for creating heirs.
As always, a masterful explanation from Wonderlander. Thank you.
January 15, 2009 at 12:32 am
Dearest Nat,
Two threads.
Can a PreNup itemize property held individually before union, thus preserving “What’s Mine is mine, what’s yours is yours?”
Natalia: Yes.
Are prenups void if girl is pregnant? They are void here in the West.
Natalia: No. But Art.233 of the Civil Code of Ukraine holds a transaction voidable if found extremely infavorable to the party affected by an onerous circumstance, whatever initiator of the transaction. If the court annuls it, the following consequences are envisaged:
* restitution / compensation of what has been exchanged, and
* payment of material and moral damages by the party who’s taken advantage of the other party’s difficulties.